SPECIAL: Chat with author Ben Aaronovitch on "Rivers of London" and "Doctor Who" (English)

BONUS: Das Atomic Cafe im Early Bird-Modus. Gleich am Tag 1 des neuen Jahres gibt's eine Bonusfolge. Holger hat mit dem britischen Bestsellerautor Ben Aaronovitch über seine „Rivers of London“-Reihe und seine Doctor Who-Episoden geplaudert. Das Interview wurde im Rahmen der Vienna Comic Con aufgenommen. Und zwar draußen. Weswegen es bitterkalt war  – und das Gespräch zu einem abrupten Ende kam. Am Schluss gab's als Bonus aber noch einen essentiellen Tipp für alle „Schreiberlinge“. Diese Podcastepisode ist auf Englisch.

Welcome to this special Episode of the Atomic Cafe Podcast. This time Host Holger chats with bestselling author Ben Aaronovitch about his "Rivers of London"-series and "Doctor Who". The interview was recorded at the Vienna Comic Con. This episode is in English. 

Ben Aaronovitch is an bestselling author and creator of the "Rivers of London" novel series.

Doctor Who episodes written by Ben:
Remembrance of the Daleks (Season 25)
Battlefield (Season 26)

Guest: Ben Aaronovitch
Interview by Holger Potye 

This is a "This Fox means Business Production“
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Hosted by Babs Kaudelka, Holger Potye & Michi Reichelt
Producer: Holger Potye / Showrunner: Momo
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Exec Producer: Julia Rotter
Social Media Rep: Babs Kaudelka
Invisible Producer: Tim
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Der Atomic Cafe Jingle ist eine gekürzte Version des Wahlkampfspots „Daisy“ aus dem Wahlkampf zwischen Lyndon B. Johnson vs. Barry Goldwater aus dem Jahr 1964. Copyright: Library of Congress

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro & Jingle
• 0:55 Doctor Who
• 6:20 Rivers of London
• 14:55 Has London changed and does it affect the novels?
• 18:50 Important advice for writers

Transcript

Welcome to the Atomic Cafe Podcast Special. This time featuring British bestselling author and screenwriter Ben Aaronovitch, known for the Rivers of London novel series. Atomic Cafe host Holger and Ben chat about Doctor Who, the Rivers of London universe and at the end, Ben shares an essential writing advice he learned the hard way.

Willkommen beim Atomic Cafe Special! Dieses Mal gibt es ein interview mit dem englischen Bestseller-Autor und Drehbuchschreiber Ben Aaronovitch. Das Atomic Cafe Special ist auf Englisch. 0:55

H:Hi Ben, we are running. Before we come to Rivers of London, obviously, I'd like to talk to you about …

B: Doctor Who!

H: Yeah. Obviously. 

B: Surprise. 

H: I mean it started on Disney +  in Austria and Germany.

B: Yes.

H: And you wrote like two great stories for Doctor Who.

B: I wrote two stories, I'll leave it to other people to decide wheter they were great or not. 
 
 H: I think actually the first one was very well received. 

B: It was very well received, I'm not so proud of the second one, which I think went wrong a bit. I mean that's my opinion. It's not really a professional kind of "AHHHHHH" rather than. It's awfully, the awful thing ever but I do sit there watching it sometimes going "Oh god I can't believe I did that transition the wrong way" It's just trust me it's a writer thing. We're never happy. 1:42

H: Could you maybe explain to the Austrian and German people why Doctor Who is such a big thing in the the UK. It's like every child grows up to it, I think. 

B: It's very complex. It's hard to say. Doctor Who, I mean, it went on for a very long time in the first iteration and it was something that happened on a … You have to imagine you're a child, right? So in the morning on Saturday there's children's cartoons and then there's endless sport on both channels. This is back when there's like two channels, Okay, and there's endless sport that goes on and on and on and then finally, finally the sport ends and there's usually like a game show and then the news and then Doctor Who. And for 25 minutes you are not watching sport and you are transported into this mad world with this mad person and the advantage of it is it just remakes itself for every generation and so therefore because the decision, the crucial decision was when they decided to replace (William) Hartnell with Patrick Troughton. And once they made the decision that you could actually just change the main character without changing the main character, making him a completely different person and revamp the whole series and you know and you've seen this if you watch, if you ever sit down and watch the whole thing from start to finish, you'll see.

H: Did you?

B: Well when I was writing for it, yes, because back then when I was writing with this like '86, '87, VHS had only just been invented. So you couldn't get any of these things on streaming or VHS. And I went into the producer's office and he had them all on tape and I just went, "I'll just take these home." And I just took like, come in, grab some, take them home. And I was like, so I spent two weeks just watching all the Doctor Who that was available at the time. I mean, some of it I'd watched when I was younger, but some of it was like, you know, it was from when I was two, so I didn't watch it at all. And it became a cultural institution. I think the closest thing is you know about the German Christmas thing where they showed that British comedy, "Dinner for One"?

H: "Dinner for One"?

B: Yeah, right. It's like that, only on the entire series, okay? It's something that's become. Nobody's really sure why, but it's become an institution. So when it was cancelled, it just sat there. And I knew when they brought it back, it was going to be successful. Because it was.

There was a hole. There was basically a tARDIS shaped hole in the British psyche and as soon as they brought it back on a Saturday where it was supposed to be At that time slot. I just knew it was going to be successful And then and it was and it actually changed the whole course of British drama production because up until that point everyone was terribly excited about celebrity shows and Game shows and things like that and they were making more and more of those and less and less drama because drama is expensive and difficult to make and Why make it when you can import it from Australia to you know America right and then doctor who came on just blew away The entire opposition and everyone We have to make our own shows otherwise people won't watch it see and and Nobody expected it to be as successful as it was apart from me obviously obviously and and so I can see it going on forever It just goes on forever because we'll just you know it'll change it you'll have like you have a woman doctor "Ah, women doctors are fine.

H: So are you still watching?

B: Yes, I mean my son watches it and I watch it with him. "Oh, it's Doctor Who!

H: So who's your favorite actor?

B: Well, I mean you have to love Sylvester McCoy because he was my doctor who I wrote for him. 5:17 I like Tom Baker, I always like John Pertwee. Those are the doctors of my childhood. And then I like Tennant and I like Jodie Whittaker. I like Jodie Whittaker a lot. I felt she was poorly served by some of her stories, but I liked the actual doctor I liked very much. I liked Donna Noble as my favorite companion after Ace. 5:42

H: Interesting.

B: I don't know why. I couldn't tell you why she's my favorite companion, except that she is. You know, I just, I still like it.

H: So would you like to write again for Dr.

B: No, they're not gonna ask me to write for them.

H: Are you not on good terms with the BBC? .

B: They're just not, they're just not gonna ask me to write. No, because it's not the way it works. You know Russell T. Davies is not going to phone me up and go, "Would you like to write for Doctor Who? And I'm not sure I could. I've got very used to being my own boss now and I'm not sure I could work for somebody else again. And I'm not sure I have anything to contribute to Doctor Who. I think I did my bit back then. I don't think I'm necessarily good for anything now.

H: Come on. Speaking of being your own boss, let's come to Rivers of London. I think the first novel came out in 2011.

B: 2011.

H: Well, okay. So I'd be interested, like, how did you approach the whole thing, the story? How did you approach storytelling?

B: This is the curse of modern day, right?

H: Yeah.

B: Everything has to be, everything's a journey, everything has an approach.

H: How did you …

B: I sat down.

H: You worked at Waterstones.

B: Yeah, I walked at Waterstones, I was going broke, I needed some money. 6:54 I only have one talent which is writing. I decided to I was shelving people that I'd never heard of before And I was thinking to myself look all these people have been published in the year that I've been working here Therefore follow my logic here.  It must be easy to get published Which is stupid right? 19:22 But a certain Inability to face facts is quite important when you're a writer and I just sat down and started writing a book in the middle of the night I mean I and I came up and it just sort of went from there And then I wasn't expecting it to be a huge success. Neither was my agent, neither were the publishers. I didn't get a huge advance. 7:30

H: But was it easy for you to get publishers in the first place?

B: I wrote the first sort of four pages of Peter Grant's voice, that whole opening sequence in Covent Garden. I read that and I was gonna have to excuse my French and I thought, fuck me, this will sell. 7:44 Right, I knew I could sell it to a publisher once I wrote those four pages because the voice, the voice was so good. You know, the voice was, the voice was so appealing, the voice was like attractive, people were gonna, never mind what the bloody rest of the book was about, which I didn't know at the time, but I knew the voice would sound. Then it became just a question of writing a book to a certain standard that the publishers would accept. And I, but I knew they would because the voice was so good. I knew people would pick it up, read those four pages and go, "Oh, I want to spend more time with this guy. 8:14

H: But how did you find  the idea and how did you find Peter, like the characters?

B: Well, Peter kind of arrived.

H: He arrived, he just arrived?

B: I was noodling you noodle around you write little sequences and he just there Like it like …

H: So he waited in the corner for you to call him up or? 

B: Fuck nows. It's you know just don't want to question this too much.

H: Oh, you put a jinx on it, right? 8:38

B: You know, yeah, you don't want to question it You know especially kind of four o'clock in the morning because I had to you know When you write for working full-time and you have a kid the only time you're gonna get to write So if you wake up at four o'clock in the morning start writing and so for a click You don't question these things, right? If it's going good, you just go, "Yeah, it's going good. 8:56

H: So how long did it take you to write like the first novel?

B: It took me three to six months, you know, depending on how you got it.

H: Writing at four o'clock in the morning, for two hours.

B: Writing at four o'clock in the morning, yeah.

H: Okay, so it sounds a little bit like Stephen King. He was like a teacher.

B: No, Stephen King writes 10,000 words a day, the bastard. 9:10

H: And you?

B: I write, if I write 750, that's a good day, right? My average is between 250 and 500.

H: All right.

B: Right, and I just can't crank it out like he can. You know, Brandon Sanderson is the same. He just writes with tremendous rate. I can't do that. I've tried, I've tried to speed myself up, but it would be very convenient for me if I could write 10,000, yeah. Not even 10,000, 2,000 words a day would be wonderful.

H: All right, all right. So where does your love for supernatural come from, I wonder? 9:45

B: Ah, I grew up reading science fiction of fantasy.

H: Yeah, but did you have like a spooky moment?

B: No, I'm not a skeptic.

H: You're a skeptic?

B: It's actually easier to write fantasy if you're a skeptic than if you're not a skeptic.

H: You have to explain that to me.

B: Well, if you're a skeptic, you can just make it all up. You don't think to yourself, "Oh, is this realistic? No, it's so for me, I only have to worry about the policing and the other stuff to be realistic. The fantasy is just great. I just make my shit up. 10:13

H: So and the police procedural elements, how did you get them right?

B: Well, you have lots of stuff on the internet, phoning up the police, trying to make contact with people, finding stuff online. They're buying police training books, which is quite very useful. 10:27

H: Okay.

B: Set of material about the law and stuff. So, all that kind of stuff. And then guesses that turned out to be true in a lot of cases. And no one has called me out on the places where it's not true. And then now I have police officers. I have friends who are … 

H: You have friends in higher places.

B: Well, because of the  … well, low places. I don't hang around with the ACPO rank. I sit, I'm down with the Sarge and some Constance of Wars, not with the …

H: Right. So how does it work? You approach a police and say, guys, I have a problem.

B: No, no, people come up to me when I'm at book signings.

H: Oh, really?

B: Yeah. Or they text me and go, hi, I'm a serving police officer. You got that wrong. And I go, ha, you are now my text for an old police officer.

H: Oh, this is cool.

B: I'm trapped forever. No.

H: So when you start a novel, you just start writing, I guess, from what you told me before?

B: No, it depends. It varies. Some of them I know what's basically what's going to happen. Some of them I don't. Some of them I think, "Oh, that's a really good opening, but I have no idea where it goes after.

H: And then you just trust in yourself and go forward? 11:28

B: Well, what happens is you write the first 20. One of the reasons is why people write like 20 to 30,000 words and then stop and then go, "Oh, I wrote this novel by itself.  It's because the first 20 to 30 thousand words are easy. Because you don't have to worry about the plot.

H: Yeah.

B: It just can be all fun stuff. Like, oh, this person goes to school, this person does this, this person does that. I'll introduce this person, this exciting idea. When you get past 30 thousand words, you have to start thinking about where you are. 11.55

H: Story arcs and stuff.

B: It's just going, you have the plot going to develop. Where, you know, what is the emotional arc? What is the character arc of that character? And that's when you start thinking. So, you know, once I'm about 10 to 20 thousand words in, I start thinking about where it's going, you know, unless I know, sometimes I know, sometimes I don't, it depends on the book. 12:12

H: And did it always work out?

B: Well, so far. (laughing) 

H: But like, was one book especially hell or was it …?

B: Oh, God, they're all freaking bastards. Yes, they are, they all fight me, the half of bloody time, and I'm going, "Where are we going? All right, all right. You're the author. (groaning) My son is coming to my room going, Dad, who are you shouting at? I'm shouting at my characters.

H: Is he going to be a writer as well?

B: No, God, I hope not. 12:42 I was hoping for an accountant.

H:Oh, right, but he never went for an accountant.

B: No, he'd probably film. I was really annoyed. I was kind of like, "Our family is full of fucking writers and filmmakers and musicians. We need an accountant.

H: But he's creative as well, I guess.

B: Yes, he is creative, but he's good at maths, you see. That's what I was hoping for the accountancy.

H: Oh, wow. Okay, that sounds good.

B: He could be like a programmer or something. Oh no, he's going to do some of the very technical side of film. He's probably aiding and sound and stuff like that.

H: Sounds a bit boring right now.

B: No, it's hard work though. Yeah. That's his job. He's old enough now. He can worry about him by yourself.

H: I have to say, what got my attention, I just bought the Rivers of London book last time I was in London actually. And for me it was kind of a weird alternative travel guide to the city. 13:36 Because there's so much detail in terms of geography. So I really like to explore the areas you're writing about and then walk through them. 13.46

B: Well that's always fun for me. I like finding a place and then talking about it.

H: So you love London.

B: Yeah, I love London. I was born and raised in London.

H: And how does it work? Are you at a certain place and you think, hey, this could …

B: Yeah, sometimes I go somewhere and I think, oh, that's an interesting place. Sometimes I think I need an interesting place and I go find it. And sometimes someone goes to me, did you know that there's such and such a thing that's here? And I go, what, really? And they go, yes. And I go and look at it and I go, oh, that's going in a book. And sometimes I just make stuff up.

H: Okay, but there's a lot of research and detail in the … 

B: Yeah, but it's not really hard work. Research is not hard.

H: Yeah, you love it and that's why it's not hard work.

B: Yeah, it's not hard work. I would read books about these sorts of things anyway. 14:28

H: Right.

B: It's just a question of becoming a bit more focused and making notes. You make a lot of notes and then you're halfway through the book and you need something and you think, "Oh, and then you go out and find some more stuff. That's basically what I do. I go as neat. It's not nearly as systematic as it sounds. It's really mostly done kind of like on the fly. I do it mostly on the fly.

H: And has the city changed a lot since you started writing? 14:58

B: Well, they keep knocking things down which is really annoying. I put them in the book and they knock them down. For God's sake could you just knock down this building for five minutes. So you know but yeah the city but that's London. London has never been static. It's not a static city. It's not a city, I don't think any of the big big cities not Vienna not Paris are static. they're never static cities. However much you kind of preserve the kind of interior bit. The real part of a city, the part of a city where people actually live, right, you know, the bit outside, outside that ring, like the people who are outside the old city ring. 15:42 That's where stuff actually happens. That's where people live their lives. That was always changing because the commerce is always changing, the basis. I mean, this was a city based on the Danube. 15.54 I mean it was built around, like as London was the Thames, built around the Danube. It's not built around the Danube now. Your main industries are not shipping through the Danube and taxing people who are putting barges.

H: I just don't know how a novel would look like if it played in Vienna  …

B: Well, I don't know. I'm thinking about it.

H: You should, because-- - 

B: I mean, maybe not a novel, maybe a short story, maybe a novella, maybe a chapter in another book.

H: And then you would go here and come here and just research?

B: Yeah, oh yeah. Oh, good, yes, what a hardship. Oh no! Look, it's one hour and 40 minutes from London.

H: Yeah, that's true.

B: Right? And then it's like, what, 35 minutes in from the station? And you get here, I mean, there's a lovely train system. It's not even like you have to get a taxi. There's hotels everywhere, guidebooks. It's not going to be a-- it would not be a hardship to set something in. It would not be sitting there going, oh, woe is me.

H: It's hard work again.

B: I'm writing in Vienna, how terrible is that?

H: True. Another question is you did a role-playing game as well, and then tried it.

B: Yes, well, I didn't do it, Chaosium did it, but I helped.

H: Yeah.

B: I did the easy bits. They did all the hard bits.

H: And are you happy?

B: Oh, it's fucking fantastic.

H: Did you play it?

B: I've played it, yes. Just a little couple of sample games. I'm not a very good role-playing game. I was a terrible GM and I'm a terrible player, but I love designing scenarios. I always like designing scenarios back in the D&D days and things like that. And so therefore, for me, this is just. I always wanted a role-playing game and now I've got one.

H: So when you design a scenario, how do you approach it?

B: Oh, the same way I write a novel. You just start, you start, and then you go, what happens next? And then you have to start thinking about it. You always play around until you find a good idea. And then you play around with it. And then you start, that's when the hard work starts. You have to start thinking about, what am I going to do next? How is this going to go? And then you go. 17:47

H: How often do characters surprise you?

B: Oh, all the time.

H: Yeah, but you know them pretty well by now, I guess.

B: Yeah, but they still surprise me. And while surprise is not really the right word, aggravate is probably the right word. Surprise implies joy.

H: Yeah.

B: Aggravate. They go, oh, I'm not doing that. Oh, he's like, say, get in a plot. Oh, I'm stupid. I'm not doing that. I look stupid. You are stupid. Get in the plot.

H: OK, Ben. Do you have really your favorite place in London that you can talk about, which wouldn’t spoil it for you. 

B: I love all the places.

H: Is there a magic place for you in London? There is a lot of wind right now, so we hear it in the microphones, sorry.

B: Not really, I love the whole place. I haven't gone anywhere in London. In fact, to be honest, I don't go anywhere, I don't think this would make a good story, right? It's just everywhere is interesting. As soon as you stop kind of being annoyed about the bus being late and start looking around you, you have to look. Can we speed this up, I'm freezing.

(laughing)

H: Last question. 18:50 The most important lesson you learned from life so far.

B: Okay, buy a good chair.

H: Buy a good chair.

B: Well, no, seriously, people think I'm joking, right? If you're gonna be a writer, you need a good chair 'cause you're going to spend like 10 to 12 hours a day in it and you need a proper chair. Spend money on the chair. Do not try and sit on a dining chair with your laptop. You may be fine when you're 20, but by the time you're 50, you will be in hospital. So buy a good chair.

H: Buy a good chair and that's it. Thank you so much, Ben Aaronovitch. And all the best. 

B: You're welcome. Thank you. 19:22